Volume 69 No. 10 October, 2023

Editor’s Notes

There will be no Call for Auction Consignments this year, because we already have 60 items in a number of consignments! Look for the usual lot listing in the next issue.

Paul Hybert, editor

Minutes of the 1256th Meeting

The 1256th meeting of the Chicago Coin Club was called to order by President John Riley at 6:43 PM CDT, Wednesday September 13, 2023. This was a hybrid in-person and online meeting. Attendance at the meeting was 16 members and 2 guests, with 19 online for a total of 37.

Club Meeting Minutes and Treasurer’s Report

The August 2023 meeting minutes were approved as published in the Chatter, both in print and on the CCC website. John Riley gave the August period treasurer’s report that had been prepared and submitted by Elliott Krieter. It detailed $5 revenue (Misc) and $0.00 expenses, for a period total of $5.00. Scott McGowan requested that the Misc listing in the treasurer’s report be noted as “club merchandise.” The August report was approved by the club membership.

New Members

Scott McGowan reported there were no new membership applications. Two guests, Barb Browning and Marc Hertz, were in attendance.

Old Business

  1. John Riley reported the board approved Directors and Officers (D&O) insurance at the August board meeting with a premium amount that was within the $500 board approval level.
  2. Dale Lukanich reported on the 2024 ANA World’s Fair of Money (WFoM). A change to the published email for contact is the new email The September 20th committee meeting is delayed until 7pm on October 4, 2023. Stickers promoting the 2024 WFoM were distributed at the recent ILNA show.
  3. John Riley reminded club members of the symposium with NYNC which has yet to have date and program be determined.
  4. A survey on proposed “Projects” for the use of CCC funds will be sent to club membership. Please watch for it and complete the brief survey. The issue of investing a portion of club finds in an interest-bearing account is part of the projects committee.
  5. A call for reports from any other committees provided no new updates.
  6. Mark Wieclaw announced several members are interested in buying the CCC polo shirts. A new order can be placed but requires a total of six shirts combined from members. Two shirt options: 100% cotton at $33.00 and Poly/Cotton at $29.00. Two colors are burgundy and dark blue. For 2XL size add $3, for 3XL size add $4. Order deadline is October 15, 2023 and shirts can be picked up at the December banquet meeting. Email Mark at; payments by check must be payable to Mark Wieclaw mailed to PO Box 451, Mokena IL 60448. All shirt correspondence and payments are to be directly with Mark.

New Business

  1. John Riley announced the passing of Numismatist Neil Shafer a, well know numismatic writer since the 1950s.
  2. John Riley reviewed a few issues discussed at the August CCC Board meeting as D&O insurance, special projects committee, the Holiday banquet.
  3. John Riley thanked all the CCC members who helped staff the CCC table at the recent ILNA Coin Show in Tinley Park. The show was well attended all three days, with the Bourse being very busy. The CCC thanks ILNA for providing the table for the club.
  4. Reminder about the CCC Discord app. Deven Kane indicated that there is good activity from a few members discussing fun coin finds and other numismatic chat. Discord is a voice, video, and text chat app that is used by tens of millions of people ages 13+ to talk and hang out with their communities and friends. The CCC has a private group on Discord to discuss numismatics. If you wish to join the CCC group on Discord, email the club secretary for the passcode access link.
  5. John Riley reported that CCC’s Dale Lukanich spoke on I&M Canal Banknote issues at the recent ANS lecture series. These types of collaborations with CCC members and other numismatic groups are great.
  6. John Riley wrapped up the issue of the 2023 ANA World’s Fair of Money in Pittsgurgh noting that he hoped all CCC members who attended had a great time and will plan to attend and participate in the 2024 event in Rosemont.
  7. Bob Leonard updated the club that while Neil Shafer was not a CCC member, he had been a featured speaker at an ANA CCC meeting, giving a presentation on Panics of 1907 and 1914 Scrip.

Featured Program

Robert D. Leonard on When Princes Overpromise: “Latin” Imitations of Hyperpyra of John III Vatatzès – A Coinage of Geoffrey II of Villehardouin (Plus Sutton Hoo and King Offa).

Show and Tell

Second Vice President Deven Kane announced there were 13 Show and Tell presentations.


John Riley adjourned the meeting at 9:07pm CDT.

Respectfully Submitted,
Scott A. McGowan, Secretary

Speaker’s Wor[l]d
When Princes Overpromise: “Latin” Imitations of Hyperpyra of John III Vatatzès — A Coinage of Geoffrey II of Villehardouin (Plus Sutton Hoo and King Offa)

a presentation by Robert D. Leonard,
to our September 13, 2023 meeting

[If you are not familiar with the Byzantine Empire, Latin Empire, Nicaean Empire, and Fourth Crusade, find and read one or two brief articles using a Google search. It will place the mentioned players, both people and empires, in context. Editor.]

Have you ever promised the future delivery of a certain amount of money, and then found yourself short when the amount was due? If so, you were not the first person with this experience. Robert presented three historical cases where this apparently happened with gold coins, and showed the resulting pieces of necessity. The major example dates to the late Byzantine Empire.

The Byzantine gold hyperpyron, a cup-shaped coin, was introduced in 1192 by Alexius I as part of a general coinage reform, struck at both Constantinople and Thessalonica. With little change, it continued until the reign of Alexius III, 1195-1203. The minting of gold coins at Constantinople was interrupted by its capture in the Fourth Crusade, 1204. It was not until about 20 years later that a Byzantine gold coinage was resumed, by the Nicaean emperor John III Vatatzès, 1222-1254, at Magnesia in Anatolia. His hyperpyra were struck in large quantities and are very common today; these coins were struck from two or three dies, one or two for the convex obverse and another for the concave reverse.

Beginning during the fourth decade of the 13th century, imitations of these hyperpyra were minted. Contemporary sources (Italian merchants) mention the fineness of Byzantine gold of John III Vatatzès at between 17 and 16½ carats, with the latin imitations at 16 carats. The contemporary sources also provide descriptions of the original hyperpyra of John III Vatatzès as well as the imitations, but some of the distinctions have baffled numismatists to this day. (The coins have many more siglas than those listed by contemporaries – a sigla is a monogram of letters or symbols, used to indicate something.)

The current standard classification of the latin imitations is that of Ernest Oberländer-Târnoveanu, published in 2000 and quickly accepted by scholars. He developed a set of markers different from that of the contemporary Italian merchants. First, the nimbus of Christ on the obverse is usually plain, as opposed to the beaded nimbus of originals, and contains within it a cross pattée instead of the parallel-armed Greek cross of the Byzantine coin. (A few imitations are known that have the nimbus partially beaded, indicating that fully-beaded examples probably exist.) Also, the Byzantine imperial crown was distinguished by a pair of hanging chains called pendilia, which generally are shown on coins as chains with a number of jewels at the end. Robert reviewed the different styles of pendilia found by Oberländer-Târnoveanu on originals and imitations, and then reviewed the various siglas used (25 on originals, and 10 on imitations).

Robert offered an additional criterion for recognizing the imitations, the shape of the sigma on the obverse. But instead of the Σ shape known today, the zigzag was often omitted, with a sigma appearing as a modern “C” (which is not in the Greek alphabet). On originals, the sigma is usually shown as a full “C” character, while on the imitations it is much narrower, often practically a straight line. By itself this is not decisive either, because some definite originals have narrow sigmas. Ideally, you would want to see two characteristics to confirm that a coin is a “latin” imitation, but some coins do not clearly show all characteristic areas – with a large set of characteristics, it should be possible to decide between original and “latin” imitation in virtually every case.

So, who made the “latin” imitations? Contemporary sources are silent on this, just referring to them as “Latin gold perperi.” Robert quickly reviewed a number of candidates proposed since Metcalf in 1965: Ivan Asen II of Bulgaria; various Latin emperors; the administration of the Latin Empire; the Venetians; the Genoese; and some researchers had offered no candidates. He followed that with a chronological review of 10 hoards containing “latin” imitation hyperpyra, divided into three chronological periods.

To rule out some of the previously listed candidates, Robert mentioned their financial difficulties. Both co-Latin Emperors, Baldwin II and John de Brienne, were increasingly desperate for money, with Baldwin II’s barons in Constantinople borrowed 13,134 hyperpyra from the Venetians, then could not repay; in October 1248, Baldwin II tried to borrow 24,000 hyperpyra to repay debts already incurred from the merchants of Constantinople, but never received the funds. While Venice and Venetian merchants had the wherewithal to coin imitation gold hyperpyra at this time, Venice did not have a gold coinage, the fine details of its silver grossi are a closer match to the originals than to the imitations, and the style of the imitations seems too crude for the Venetian mint. Toward the end of the reign of John III Vatatzès, in 1252, Genoa had already introduced its own gold coinage, so it had no need to make hyperpyra copies at this time.

Instead of a narrow focus on the Latin Empire proper, consider the Latin Empire’s vassal states (now generally known as Frankish Greece). Geoffrey I of Villehardouin was confirmed as lord of Achaea by the Latin emperor Henry of Flanders in May 1209 and assumed the title of prince later that year. Circa 1229 his son succeeded him as Geoffrey II. With the economy of Achaea flourishing, Geoffrey II began construction of a great fortress at Glarentza; he flaunted his wealth by maintaining 80 knights with golden spurs. In 1236 he came to the relief of Constantinople, then besieged by John III Vatatzès. As part of his support he offered an annual subsidy of 22,000 hyperpyra to the co-Latin emperors John de Brienne and Baldwin II. Robert believes that when Geoffrey II of Villehardouin began collecting the 22,000 hyperpyra for the first annual subsidy in 1236, not enough hyperpyra of John III Vatatzès could be obtained, so imitations were made to complete the payment.

The two “latin” imitations found in the Preslav IV Hoard (Bulgaria-Nicaea border area), deposited about five years later, would have reached there via Constantinople, while their appearance in the 1259 Erymantheia Hoard in Achaea itself could be explained by the minting of additional hyperpyra for local use. Coinage would have continued for several years, as needed for the subsidy, until circa 1243 when Geoffrey last assisted Baldwin II. The most likely place of minting is Glarentza, where the first deniers tournois were struck about 20 years later. However, the first named Achaean coins, small coppers of two denominations, were minted at Corinth, perhaps as early as the last years of the reign of Geoffrey II, so Corinth must be considered an alternative. Thus, the “latin” imitations of hyperpyra of John III Vatatzès should be attributed to the principality of Achaea, issued by Geoffrey II of Villehardouin 1236-circa 1243, probably at Glarentza.

Having presented his case for the latin imitations being home-made imitations to substitute for the intended gold coins, Robert offered for our consideration two earlier, yet smaller scale, cases of home-made imitations. The first case is from Sutton Hoo in Dark Age England. Sutton Hoo, located on the southeast coast of England near Ipswitch, contains a number of medieval burials. A large mound, when excavated in 1939, was found to contain the remains of an enormous ship, in which a king was buried, together with priceless treasures and a purse containing gold coins plus two small gold ingots. Experts have provided different dates for the coins in the purse: circa 613 or before; and 610-635. The most likely candidate is King Rædwald of East Anglia, who died circa A.D. 624. The ship was a galley, propelled by oars, with 20 oarsmen on each side for a total of 40. Presumably, each oarsman was supposed to be paid a gold coin, in this case a Merovingian tremissis from the Continent, with the ingots as payment for the steersman. But the burial had only 37 genuine gold coins – the remaining 3 were blanks, of the same value. Robert believes King Eorpwald, if it was he who ordered this impressive burial of his father, could not locate 40 real coins in all of East Anglia, and had three extras made to complete his pledge.

Robert concluded his program with a second example from medieval southern England, during the reign of King Offa of Mercia. Offa, a powerful king who proclaimed himself King of the English in 774, was a contemporary and rival of Charlemagne. A devout Christian, Offa received two Papal legates in 786. To impress them, Offa promised to donate gold coins, ‘as many as there are days in the year, as alms for the poor, and for the manufacture of lights for the church’ – a total of 365 gold coins. Perhaps this was intended to be an annual donation. By now, the Merovingian tremissis was long obsolete; the standard gold coin was the dinar of the Abbasid Dynasty of Baghdad. In Europe it was called a mancosus or mancus, a term of uncertain derivation: its official name, dinar, is part of the Arabic legend. (The Byzantine solidus of this period weighed about 4.45 grams, while the dinar weighed only 4.25 grams.) Robert showed an Abbasid dinar or mancus dated 157 A.H., which equates to a year spanning parts of 773 and 774, followed by King Offa’s imitation. While the obverse is fairly close, the reverse was struck with OFFA REX upside down. The only known example is in the British Museum, acquired in 1913 but originally purchased by the Duke de Blacas in Rome before 1841. Presumably it was found there, adding credence to the supposition that it is one of the 365 donated to Pope Adrian in 786.

This mashup of a Muslim coin bearing the Trinity-denying Muslim declaration of faith and claiming that Muhammad is the messenger of God, in Arabic, and the name of a Christian king, in Latin, has given rise to many theories. It has been seriously advanced that Offa issued this coin because he converted to Islam, but if so, he would have sent his donation to the Caliph instead of to the Pope. But maybe Offa didn’t realize that the squiggles on a mancus were actually writing, and thought that they were merely ornamentation. Or perhaps he thought that his gift would be more useful to pilgrims to the Holy Land if made in the form of Muslim coins. Not stated in these theories is what must be the real reason: Offa could not find 365 mancusi in his entire kingdom, and had to make imitations to keep his promise to the legates.

While all the John III Vatatzès and “latin” imitation hyperpyra that Robert showed are authentic, in the past quarter-century a number of modern fakes have appeared on the market, primarily sold through eBay and European dealers. All are cruder than even the “latin” imitations. There are a limited number of false dies or molds, with many die duplicates seen, and many pieces are squarish or rectangular. They have also appeared in base metal, sometimes being offered as copper coins instead of gold. An entire false “hoard” has appeared, and is being offered by Roma Numismatics, London. The only necessity served by these off-metal strikes is modern greed – do not confuse these counterfeits with original hyperpyra of the 13th century. For more details on Robert’s ideas on “latin” imitation hyperpyra, see his paper presented at the 16th International Numismatic Congress in Warsaw, in September of 2022.

Current Advertisers

Chicago Coin Company
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
Kedzie Koins Inc.
Classical Numismatic Group

Show and Tell

Items shown at our September 13, 2023 meeting,
reported by Deven Kane.

  1. Melissa Gumm showed three items.
    1. A half dollar sized two-piece embossed tin featuring Christopher Columbus facing right, surrounded by Columbian Gum, Trade 1893 Mark. The bottom of the box is marked “Patent Applied For. ” This item is not noted in the Eglit Columbiana “handbook,” so is it really a WCE souvenir?
    2. Also in the cigar box with the above item was a 77mm bronze prize medal featuring a full length Columbus landing on soil of the New World, clothed in armor, with a short cloak of the period. He is followed by figures also coming from the boat seen in the back ground. To his right we see inscribed Christopher Columbus Oct XII MCCCCXCII, above which is a plaque with the pillars of Hercules; on the bottom edge can be seen Augustus Saint Gaudens Fecit. On the reverse. between two flaming torches. is a plaque with “Worlds Columbian Exposition in Commemoration of the Four Hundredth Anniversary of the Landing of Columbus MDCCCXII-MDCCCXCIII.” Below that is the word To and a blank rectangle for engraving. Below the plaque is the Santa Maria, below which we see C.F. Barber Fecit. This type of medal was produced in gold, silver, and bronze. This was an official government mint issue, so special permission had to be received from the Treasury Department by award winners to reproduce it in advertising.
    3. Our neighbors bought what is affectionately known as the “project” house, contents and all, so they spent much of Summer 2022 cleaning out junk, lots of junk and a few treasures. I received this treasure, associated with the Columbian World’s Fair – it is a large ring, a napkin ring, featuring portraits of Queen Isabella (1492) and Christopher Columbus (1892) with, I believe, the Administration building in between. Along the bottom is World’s Columbian Exhibition Chicago. Although this is not found in Eglit’s book, Melissa found several on Etsy and Pinterest.
  2. Bob Leonard showed a range of items.
    1. An original gold hyperpyron of John III Vatatzès, as described in tonight’s program.
    2. A “Latin” imitation of a hyperpyron of John III Vatatzès, as described in tonight’s program.
    3. As of Titus countermarked XLII on obverse. Who placed this 42 here, centuries later: Vandals? Ostrogoths?
    4. The book Medieval European Coinage 1: The Early Middle Ages (5th-10th centuries). “Countermarked Early Imperial Bronze Coins” are discussed on pages 28-31 and Plates 4 and 5. The authors state (1986) that “only about 150 are known today, with about 110 in museums.” If true, this would mean that Chicago Coin Club members own 2% of all survivors and 7.5% of all in private hands! But perhaps their rarity is overestimated.
    Though assigned to the Vandals by Morrisson, Grierson assigned them to the Ostrogoths on the basis of find spots; only 5 are known to have come from Tunisia, while nearly all the rest were found in Italy. Morrisson explains this by their being spoils from Justinian’s reconquest of Carthage, plus the fact that the 42-nummia denomination is Vandalic and not Ostrogothic. The key to attributing them lies in finding a city – in North Africa or Southern Italy – that was very prosperous during the Flavian Dynasty (all three CCC-member pieces are of Flavian emperors), but declined considerably after that, becoming deserted by the 5th century. Probably these obsolete coins were picked up on a beach or after a rainstorm, and someone returned them to circulation at current value. There cannot be many such candidate cities, and perhaps crowdsourcing could generate a short list for further research.
  3. Scott McGowan showed a bronze US Capital Corner Stone Medal acquired at an estate sale. This 1971 medal, designed by famed sculptor Ralph J. Menconi and struck by the Medallic Arts Co., shows George Washington, wearing a Masonic apron, spreading cement on the cornerstone of the US Capitol Building, on September 18, 1793! Wonderfully detailed on both sides! One side has Washington and the cornerstone; the other side has the dome of the US Capitol building, part of the Preamble of the Constitution, “A Place of Resounding Deeds,” “Authorized by The United States Capitol Historical Society,” and the designer “Ralph J. Menconi, 1971.” The edge is marked “Medallic Arts Co. N.Y.” The medal is dated 1971, but it was first issued in 1973. About 64 mm in diameter. The edge is marked “US Capital Cornerstone Club 124” and has the marking of .999 Silver even though the medal appears to be bronze.
  4. Ed Kedzie showed a book that he had received from the estate of dear friends who about forty years ago were neighbors of Hugh M. Knight, President of the Chicago Coin Club in 1961. This 1966 book’s author is Q. David Bowers, but this book is not on a numismatic topic. The 200 pages of Early Automobile Car Advertisements concentrate on the years 1910-1916, when small manufacturers abounded.
  5. Rich Lipman showed three Austrian Mint coins in the “Language of Flowers” series.
    1. A €10 silver coin featuring a rose – the first design in the series, and the only coin dated 2021. All pieces in the series will be available as uncirculated copper and proof silver pieces.
    2. A €10 silver coin featuring a dandelion – the first coin dated 2022.
    3. A €10 silver coin featuring a marigold – the second coin dated 2022.
  6. At the TAMS (Token and Medal Society) banquet during the 2023 ANA convention in Pittsburgh, Jim Ray acquired a bronze medal. The obverse of the 1992 US Mint’s Bicentennial Medal is based on Dunsmores’ fanciful Inspecting the First Coins painting. A cropped view of the painting shows, from left to right: Alexander Hamilton, Mrs. Hamilton, David Rittenhouse, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Martha Washington (seated), Adam Eckfelt, Thomas Lear holding out a tray of coins for Martha to inspect, and Henry Voigt at the coin press in the background. The scene is based on the apocryphal story that the half dismes being shown to the Washingtons were struck from silver furnished from their household table silver. The “first coins” theme is continued on the reverse, which shows the obverses of nine US coins, each dated with its first year, and the reverses of six US coins.
  7. John Riley showed two items in honor of numismatic writer and researcher Neil Shafer, who passed away on August 24, 2023 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the age of 90. Neil was an early staffer at Whitman Publishing in the 1950s-70s and had a lasting contribution to world paper money collecting through later cataloging work at Krause Publications. He was a friend of John through the Philippine Collector’s Forum (PCF), and Neil had a tremendous sense of humor and whimsy.
    1. A 20¢ transportation token (ref.: Honeycutt-1306) that Neil particularly enjoyed and had written about, for Clark Field Bus Lines (U.S. Air Force, 1955; Manila, Philippines). The legend “Right With Mapeco Pencils” is a pun!
    2. A commemorative note that Neil had produced and distributed to observe his 80th birthday at the 2013 Military Payment Certificate Fest (MPC Fest) in Port Clinton, Ohio.
  8. Deven Kane continued his theme people who ended badly.
    1. A silver Tetradrachm from Antioch of Antiochos XIII Asiatikos/Philadelphus (69-64 BC). The obverse features the ruler’s bust, while the reverse features an enthroned Zeus holding Nike, a rare coin. Antiochos XIII Philadelphus was the penultimate ruler of the Seleucid kingdom, and the last definitively known to have issued coins. The Seleukid Kingdom never recovered from the defeat and death of Antiochos VII at the hands of the Parthians, but it was the 50 years of civil war after his death that finished off the rickety kingdom. By the end of that period, the residents of Antioch who had been historically loyal to the House of Seleukos were sick of the squabbling princes.
    2. A silver denarius of L. Manlius Torquatus and L. Cornelius, issued by a military mint traveling with Sulla. The obverse features a helmeted head of Roma, while the reverse features Sulla driving a triumphal quadriga, holding a branch, and crowned by a flying Victory. This issue was struck for the civil war in Italy in 82 BC with Sulla crushing the populares and purging his opponents ruthlessly. Torquatus was proquaestor to Sulla during the Mithridatic War and later became consul in 65 BC.
    3. From adulescentulus carnifex (little butcher) to magnus (the great) to stabbed and beheaded. A bronze coin, from the city of Soli-Pompeiopolis in Cilicia, of Pompey the Great (49-44 BC). With a 20.6 mm diameter, this rare coin features a bare head of Pompey on one side with the other side featuring Nike advancing, holding a wreath and palm over her shoulder. Pompey’s big claim to fame was his campaign against the pirates in 68 BCE and his reorganization of the east in the aftermath of the Third Mithradatic War. After subduing the pirates, he resettled some surrendered pirates in Soli, renaming it Pompeiopolis.
    4. A silver denarius of L. Plautius Plancus, from the Rome mint in 47 BC. One side has a facing facing mask of Medusa with disheveled hair, coiled serpents at either side of face, while the other side shows Aurora, draped, winged, and flying, holding reins in each hand, conducting four rearing horses of the sun. The reverse type, remarkably, can be tied to a specific ancient work of art, a painting by the 4th century BC artist Nikomachos of Thebes, possibly the personal property of Plautius Plancus. Plautius Plancus was proscribed and executed in 43 BC.
  9. Dale Lukanich showed examples of Byzantine copper coins after the reforms of Anastasius I in 495. But first, Dale reminded us that the term “Byzantine” Empire originated sometime in the 16th century. Until its final collapse in 1453, the citizens of this eastern empire identified themselves as Romans – their empire had originated when the Roman Empire evolved into two parts, the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. Both empires used the same monetary system, the traditional system of Rome, until the reforms of the gold, silver, and copper coins by Anastasius I.
    1. While the old Roman copper coinage came in 3 sizes, about 22mm, 16mm, and 13mm in diameter, the new “Byzantine” copper coinage was based on a Follis up to 39mm with a large M on the reverse. Then came a Half Follis (K), Decanummium (I), Pentanummium (E), and two Nummus (B); the Nummus had a monogram on the reverse. There are 40 Nummi in a Follis; the letter M was the Greek numeral for 40.
    2. Dale showed a Follis and Nummus of Anastasius I, first separately and then stacked. He then showed a Nummus atop a current Roosevelt dime, with the Nummus well clear of Roosevelt’s bust all around. Such a small piece must have been inconvenient to use, because it was last minted in 498.
  10. Mark Wieclaw showed some fun items before ancient pieces.
    1. A bargain from Pittsburgh – three famous signatures for $106. Current $1, $5, and $100 bills, signed by the person pictured on the front: Washington, Lincoln, and Franklin. To prove their authenticity, Mark showed pictures of the reenactors signing the notes while on the bourse floor at the recent ANA convention.
    2. A bronze medallion of Gordian III (238-244 AD), 41mm in diameter. One side has two standing figures, facing each other with outstretched arms, holding a small object in their hands. This piece marks an alliance between Kyzikos and Perinthos.
    3. A small silver 1⁄12th stater of Kroisos, circa 560-546BC. Lydia produced coins in 17 different denominations. To emphasize how small this coin is, Mark showed an image with the coin stacked atop the prior coin; this coin easily fits on the jaw of Gordian III’s bust, clear of his ear and chin.
    4. Pictures from an informal CCC gathering on September 19, 2020, during the Covid era. It was held outdoors, under a pavilion shelter in a public park. In one picture, masks were dropped to show smiling faces!
  11. Larry Edwards showed three Spanish dollars.
    1. As background, paintings depicting British and Spanish kings – George III (1760-1820), Charles III (1759-1788), and Charles IV (1788-1808) – and maps highlighting the British and Spanish empires in 1790.
    2. A 1790 8 Reales from the Mexico Mint, in the name of Carolus IV but still using the Charles III Bust. There was often a lag of several years before the new royal portrait reached engravers in the New World. This is not such an uncommon practice: the British use the term “immobilized” for retaining a monarch’s portrait after his or her death, while others use the term “frozen date.”
    3. A 1792 8 Reales of Carolus IV, with an oval counterstamp on his neck. The counterstamp pictures a bust of George III, making this coin a British coin. The Royal Mint and Matthew Boulton’s Soho Mint made such pieces.
    4. Boulton carried this further by using new obverse and reverse dies to overstrike Spanish dollars with his steam-powered equipment. By April 1811, 4.5 million had been produced, all dated 1804. On the shown example, the host coin shows through on this Bank of England five Shillings Dollar.
  12. Tyler Rossi showed two different medals which use very similar designs.
    1. A New Century silver Medal, issued 1900, by C. Starck & O. Oertel in Berlin, Germany. The facing sphinx on one side is flanked by 19 and 00 while, on the other side, the standing Greek goddess Hora, in sheer, full-length drapery, extinguishes one torch and holds another upright. 38mm in diameter.
    2. A New Century silver Medal, issued 1901, by C. Starck & O. Oertel in Berlin, Germany. At 35mm in diameter, this piece features the sphinx and Hora figures from the above piece, but slightly reduced in size; and now surrounded by a flat ring holding the legends. ANNO 1900 and ANNO 1901 surround the sphinx, leading one to believe that this type celebrates the departing 1900 and the arriving 1901, whereas the larger-sized version of the design is more of a celebration of 1900. This smaller sized variant is rarer than the type commonly encountered in 38mm diameter.
  13. Joe Boling showed a 1947 medal struck in the Netherlands, commemorating Dutch women who survived the Japanese concentration camps in what is now Indonesia. Rob Kelley of the ANA had sent Joe a picture of a recent personal acquisition, asking for more details. Over the years, Joe had bought two examples from dealer Paul Bosco – Joe had passed one to Howard Daniel, a collector of south-east Asia material, and sold the other to a collector of Dutch numismatics in Seattle in 2006. A closer inspection of the notations on the medal’s envelope, already listing dealer Paul Bosco and Joe Boling, adds Howard Daniel to the provenance of Kelley’s new piece. In response to a question, Joe stated this medal is listed in his book World War II Remembered.


Preview of Our December Banquet
(1259th Meeting)

Date: December 13, 2023 This meeting is in-person only.
Time: 5:45pm (cash bar), with complementary hors d’oeuvres.
6:30pm Dinner.
7:30pm Meeting called to order.
Location:Capri Italian Restaurant, 12307 S. Harlem Avenue, Palos Heights, IL 60463.
Details: The cost is $40 if paid by December 5, and will be $45 if paid after. Early commitments and payments are greatly appreciated. Make your reservation by mailing your check (payable to Chicago Coin Club) to P.O. Box 2301, Chicago, IL 60690; or by paying electronically (see the Chatter Matter page for details).
Parking: Free parking – Valet parking available.
Program: The speaker is Raymond J. Dagenais, on United States Flowing Hair Half Dollars. The newly formed United States of America wanted passionately to be looked upon as a sovereign entity. One way to help establish the nation’s identity was to mint its own coinage. The Flowing Hair Half Dollar was the first half dollar produced to address this challenge.
Agenda: Award Presentations.

Our 1257th Meeting

Date: October 11, 2023
Time: 6:45PM CDT (UTC-05:00)
Location: Downtown Chicago
At the Chicago Bar Association, 321 S. Plymouth Court, 3rd or 4th floor meeting room. Please remember the security measures at our meeting building: everyone must be prepared to show their photo-ID and register at the guard’s desk.
Because things can change between when this is written and we meet, please bring your face covering to the meeting – all attendees must follow the city’s and building’s rules.
This will be another attempt at a regular in-person meeting in the post-Covid-19 era. We will try for a better experience than in the past, but please be prepared for possible diifficulties.
Online: For all the details on participating online in one of our club meetings, visit our Online Meeting webpage at Participation in an online meeting requires some advance work by both our meeting coordinator and attendees, especially first-time participants. Please plan ahead; read the latest instructions on the day before the meeting!
Featured Program: Marc RicardThe Red Book Special Editions and Their Histories
This talk will give some background information on the Special Editions of the Red Book, the Limited Editions of the Red Book, and other unofficial “Special Editions” that were not published by Whitman Publishing as such, but were usually over-stamped in gilt onto the front or rear cover of the current year’s edition of the event or milestone. The talk will also mention the approximate current value of these editions, their relative rarity in the marketplace, and anecdotal details from the speaker’s collecting and selling these various editions over the past 30 years.

Important Dates

Unless stated otherwise, our regular monthly CCC Meeting is in downtown Chicago and also online on the second Wednesday of the month; the starting time is 6:45PM CT.

October 4 First meeting of the 2024 WFoM Local Host Committee – 7pm start – online only. Email Host Chair Dale Lukanich at for details on joining this committee or meeting. Still looking for an assistant for the scout’s program.
October 11 CCC Meeting - Featured Speaker - Marc Ricard on The Red Book Special Editions and Their Histories
November 8 CCC Meeting - Club Auction - no featured speaker
December 13 CCC Meeting - Annual Banquet - Featured Speaker - Raymond J. Dagenais on United States Flowing Hair Half Dollars
Venue and other details to be announced.
January 10 CCC Meeting - Featured Speaker - to be announced

Chatter Matter

Contacting Your Editor / Chatter Delivery Option

The print version of the Chatter is simply a printout of the Chatter webpage, with a little cutting and pasting to fill out each print page. The webpage is available before the Chatter is mailed.
If you would like to receive an email link to the latest issue instead of a mailed print copy, send an email to You can resume receiving a mailed print copy at any time, just by sending another email.

Club Officers

Elected positions:
John Riley- President
Melissa Gumm- First V.P.
Deven Kane- Second V.P.
William Burd- Archivist
Directors:Ray Dagenais
Mark Wieclaw
Carl Wolf
Steve Zitowsky
Appointed positions:
Richard Lipman- Immediate Past President
Scott McGowan- Secretary
Elliott Krieter- Treasurer
Paul Hybert- Chatter Editor, webmaster
Jeffrey Rosinia- ANA Club Representative


All correspondence pertaining to Club matters should be addressed to the Secretary and mailed to:
P.O. Box 2301

Or email the Secretary at
Payments to the Club, including membership dues, can be addressed to the Treasurer at the above street address.


Renewing Members Annual dues are $20 a year ($10 for Junior, under 18). Annual Membership expires December 31 of the year through which paid. Cash, check, or money order are acceptable (USD only please). We do not accept PayPal. Email your questions to Members can pay the Club electronically with Zelle™ using their Android or Apple smart phone. JP Morgan Chase customers can send payments to the Club via Quick Pay. To see if your Bank or Credit Union is part of the Zelle™ Payments Network, go to Please read all rules and requirements carefully.

Sharing this complete Chatter issue with a friend is simple. Just let them scan this code into their smartphone!