Volume 67 No. 9 September, 2021

Editor’s Notes

The recent flareup of the Delta variant of Covid-19 has postponed our resumption of in-person meetings in downtown Chicago. Personal safety concerns also give us pause. Our September and October meetings will continue to be online only. This delay will give us time to acquire some better equipment to better support remote attendees of our future hybrid meetings – our hybrid meeting during the ANA convention showed where we could make improvements.

We hope to meet in person in November as a hybrid meeting, and have our annual member auction. We still have the items intended for the auction in 2020, so we will not issue a call for general consignments. I assume our annual banquet meeting in December will be in-person only – details will be announced when they are finalized.

The ANA convention ended on Saturday, August 14, and I heard the ANA, on Monday August 16, emailed some members with the news that some convention attendees reported testing positive for Covid-19 after the convention. A CCC member, who was coming down with a cold late during the convention, on August 20 reported a negative test for Covid-19.

Paul Hybert, editor

Minutes of the 1231st Meeting

The 1231st meeting of the Chicago Coin Club was called to order by President Lyle Daly at 12:00 PM CDT, Saturday August 14, 2021, in Room 6, Donald E. Stephens Convention Center, 5555 N. River Road, Rosemont, Illinois; held in conjunction with the American Numismatic Association Convention. This meeting was the first in-person meeting since the Covid-19 Pandemic and was held in Hybrid format with online access. Attendance was 55 individuals in person and four individuals online, for a total of 59.

Motion to suspend the order of business for an abbreviated meeting agenda, allowing for approval of the July meeting minutes and membership application reading but deferring treasurer’s report, new business, and old business to the September meeting. There would also be no Show-and-Tell.

Club Meeting Minutes

The July 14, 2021 meeting minutes were approved as published in the Chatter.

New Members

Scott McGowan announced no new membership applications but completed the second reading of the membership application from Vic Anderson. Vic was present at the meeting and the application was approved, welcoming Mr. Anderson to the club. First Vice President John Riley presented Speaker medals to Madeline Rodriguez and Steve Zitowsky for their presentations at past club meetings.

First V.P. John Riley introduced the Featured Speaker, Mark Wieclaw, on The Gun Money of James II, 1689-1690. Following the presentation, John presented Mark with an ANA Educational Award and engraved club medal.

Mark Wieclaw and Bill Burd presented the Chicago Coin Club Past-President Silver medal to Past-President Richard Lipman.

Scott McGowan presented a “Short Snorter” note to Bill Burd, CCC Archivist. The Short Snorter was labeled “CCC - NYNC 8-12-2021” and signed by the nine (9) individuals from the CCC and NYNC who got together for an informal gathering during the ANA 2021 World’s Fair of Money. Each attendee at the gathering received a Short Snorter note. Two additional notes were given to each club, one for the archives and one for auction.

The next meeting will be September 8, 2021. It will be announced later in August if the September meeting will be online only or a Hybrid Meeting. Lyle Daly adjourned the meeting at 12:51 CDT.

Respectfully Submitted,
Scott A. McGowan, Secretary

Speaker’s Wor[l]d
The Gunmoney of James II, 1689-1690

presented by Mark Wieclaw,
to our August 14, 2021 meeting.

“Twenty dollars for a Crown” was the banner on the first slide we saw, and the subtitle offered the choice of “A collector or investor.” The obverse and reverse of a crown dated 1690 completed the slide. Mark’s purchase of this coin for $20 in April of 1986 served as his gateway to the story of “Gunmoney.” In those pre-internet days, learning took time, a bit of luck, and paging through books. His collection expanded as he learned about the other denominations, taking 1½ years to acquire an example of each denomination.

The first part of the program provided the historical background, starting with James’ birth on October 14, 1633 to King Charles I; as the younger brother to the heir to the throne, James served in the military and commanded the Royal Navy from 1660 to 1673. James married Anne Hyde, a fellow Protestant, in 1660 and two of their children survived to adulthood. His conversion to Catholicism in 1669 and her death in 1671 were followed by his marriage to Mary of Modena, a Catholic, in 1673. He became King James II in 1685 after the death of his older brother, Charles II; his efforts to extend rights to Protestant dissentors and Catholics strained relations with Parliament and it shut down. With the birth of a male, Catholic heir, some Protestant nobles reached out to William of Orange, ruler of the Netherlands and husband of Mary, the eldest daughter of James II from his first marriage.

William landed with an army in England, James II joined his army in response, but he lost the support of the nobility and his army deserted. Not a shot was fired. James II was captured, then allowed to escape; he fled to France on December 23, 1688 and was said to have abdicated – this now is known as the “Glorious Revolution.” William and Mary were proclaimed co-rulers of England. That is a brief recap, but it was not the end of the matter.

James II claimed he had not abdicated, and wanted the crown back. Louis XIV, already at war with William, provided 6,000 French soldiers and £40,000 for the campaign in Ireland. James’ triumphant entry into Dublin was followed by the realization that the Irish army was in terrible shape. After the French funds were used to pay the French soldiers, there was not enough to sustain the cause. Faced with a financial shortfall, Dr. William Bromfield, an advisor of James II, suggested a base metal coinage be issued with a promise to redeem it in silver once the crown went back to James II. The new coins were struck with any base metal (copper, brass, and pewter) that was available, with brass being the most abundant. Brass objects such as church bells, pots and pans, and such were used, as well as damaged/obsolete cannons. Thus the nickname “Gunmoney” or “Gun Money” – both being acceptable, but use one spelling in an article. What makes these pieces unique is that the month of issue was placed on each coin, along with the year.

The actual war lasted from March 12, 1689 until October 3, 1691. James left Ireland after the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, with the last battle at Aughrim in 1691. Before getting to the coins, Mark discussed the calendar then in use. The Feast of the Annunciation, which is celebrated March 25, commemorates the visit of archangel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary. Until 1752, England and Ireland followed the Julian calendar which had the new year begin on March 25. Confusingly to us, March 24 1688 was followed by March 25, 1689. This means that coins dated March 1689 and March 1690 were actually struck in the same month, some just a couple days apart. Any coins with a March 1690 date were produced for only six days and are naturally rare.

At the time the first coins were to be struck, only one mint was available, located in Dublin. There were two presses in operation: a large one nicknamed “James” for the King and smaller one nicknamed “The Dutchess” after the sister of the Duke of Tyrconnell. The large halfcrowns and sixpences were struck on the “James” press, while the large shillings were struck on both presses. Eventually the “Dutchess” was moved to Limerick because it was easier to get the scrap metal needed in the south of Ireland. Somewhere between £1,100,000 and £1,500,000 worth of Gunmoney was struck between the two mints.

Issuing the coins by the month allowed for the Irish soldiers to grow interest on their money. In June of 1689, James II ordered the first series of coins, consisting of halfcrowns, shillings and sixpence. At first these were not legal tender for important debts such as mortgages, bills, and bonds, but by the following February, James proclaimed them good for all debts. A second series of coins, reduced in size, was ordered in April, 1690; half crowns, shillings, and the new crown denomination were issued.

The same legends appear on all sixpence, shilling, and halfcrown coins. The obverse legend “DEI GRATIA” translates to “By the Grace of God” while the reverse legend “MAG.BR.FRA.ET.HIB.REX” translates to “King of Britain, France and Ireland.” Both of the above legends appear on the obverse of the crown denomination, although further abbreviated. “CHRISTO VICTORE TRIVMPHO” or “Christ the triumphant Victor” appears on the crown reverse along with “ANO DOM” 1690.

The sixpence coinage was the first “Gunmoney” denomination to be struck, all at the Dublin mint from June-September and November-February of 1689 with the exception one month, May of 1690, at Limerick. The value is shown as “VI” and many were overstruck as small shillings in 1690. There were some subtle differences in the coin designs between the two presses; this applies to all denominations.

The Large Shilling was struck at the Dublin Mint from July, 1689 through April, 1690. The value was shown as “XII.” Most of these were recalled, melted, and recoined as small shillings in April, 1690.

The Large Halfcrown was struck at Dublin from July, 1689 through March of 1689 and from March-May, 1690 at both Dublin and Limerick. The value “XXX” appears on the reverse. All were recalled and overstruck as the new denomination of Crown in May of 1690.

A second series was introduced, reduced in size and with a new denomination. As the struggles increased for James II and supplies of copper and brass decreased, it was determined that the sixpence needed to be dropped. Public Proclamations were made on June 15, 1690 stating that all large halfcrowns should be exchanged for the smaller shillings and halfcrowns, with the large coins declared illegal at the end of June, 1690. Although fairly precise mintages had been reported for the first series, the recalling, melting, and overstriking of these coins rendered the figures useless.

During the year 1690, the Small Shilling was struck officially from April through June, and also in September, at Limerick. The portrait of James II was the major change in design.

The Small Halfcrown was struck at both Dublin and Limerick from May through July of 1690, and in August and October, 1690 at Limerick.

The new crown denomination of 1690 features James II on horseback. Unlike the other denominations, there is no month of issue stated. All were overstruck on large halfcrowns; they were minted in June of 1690 at Dublin, and possibly at Limerick.

The Dublin mint was seized and shut down in July of 1690. William III declared that all base metal coins be reduced to intrinsic value for all payments in Ireland. This reduced the crowns and large halfcrowns to one penny; small halfcrowns to three farthings; large shillings to a half penny; and small shillings and sixpence to one farthing. All base metal coinage would cease to be legal tender for any payments in Ireland from February 26, 1690. Limerick overstruck both large and small size shillings as halfpennies and farthings – should this be considered as a Third Series of Coins?

A complete variety set of Gunmoney is an impossible goal. To start, there are dozens of date varieties (spellings, misspellings, and abbreviations). Then the majority of the first series of coins were recoined or overstruck as part of series two. And the third series further reduced the available shillings as they were recoined. Although there are both silver and gold examples for most denominations and even proof strikes, these are not contemporary, being struck mostly in the 1800 from original dies.

Although he failed to regain his title as king and his monetary system was a disaster, James II does get credit for introducing a “notional” currency based on a “promise” of a future payment. William III found the promissory system intriguing and soon allowed the Bank of England to issue such notes.

Returning back to the question on the first slide, on whether he was a collector or investor, Mark mentioned he had been offered ten times what he had paid for the piece just one week later. Then he mentioned the rewards of resistance: multiple exhibit awards, including two Best of Shows; prizes included a silver dollar, three gold coins (British sovereign, ½ ounce and ¼ ounce American Gold Eagle; and an all expence paid trip to the ANA Summer Seminar in 1989.


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Minutes of the Chicago Coin Club Board

August 18, 2021

The Chicago Coin Club Board met August 18, 2021 via web hosted video conference. President Lyle Daly called the meeting to order at 6:02pm CDT with the following Board members present. Lyle Daly, John Riley, Melissa Gumm, Paul Hybert, Rich Lipman, Scott McGowan, Carl Wolf, Bill Burd, Deven Kane, Mark Wieclaw, and Steve Zitowsky. Not Present were Elliott Krieter and Jeff Rosinia.

Old Business:

Medal of Merit: Mark Wieclaw discussed the Medal of Merit which was tabled from the May meeting. If we purchase 5, we will get 1 free based on a quantity price break. Carl Wolf advised the board that the bulk purchase would mean we would not have the deep router engraving on the back, just a scratch engraving. Individually medals are $85, plus engraving and set up costs. A purchase of five would be $70 plus engraving. Following discussion, the motion was made by Bill Burd to purchase the five medals. It was seconded by Scott McGowan and approved by the Board. Discussion of the Medal of Merit nominating committee followed the medal purchase discussion. Request that the past committee of Jeff Rosinia, Bill Burd and Mark Wieclaw continue in that capacity. Mark and Bill agreed and will reach out to Jeff to confirm.

Hybrid Meeting Update: Deven Kane reported on the Chicago Coin Club August 14, 2021 Hybrid Meeting at the ANA World’s Fair of Money. The Camera on the phone worked fine, however sound quality needed improvement. A Bluetooth speaker is needed for better audio, especially for future meeting Show and Tell. Discussions recommended an IPAD with Bluetooth speaker that connects for hybrid meetings. Total costs should be less than $1000.00. It was recommended that the club also purchase a ZOOM or WEBEX account as we have been using Board members’ work accounts in the past. The motion was made by Lyle Daly for the club to research and purchase a Webex type program with cost not to exceed $200 annually. Deven Kane seconded the motion and it was approved by the Board. Deven Kane made the motion to purchase a Bluetooth speaker with cost not to exceed $300.00. Rich Lipman seconded the motion which was passed by the Board.

Google Phone: Scott McGowan reported that the Google phone number for the club has been set up and is 773-236-0237. The CCC brochure was updated with this phone number before the ANA convention.

Google Drive: Lyle Daly inquired about the set up of the Google Drive. Discussion was that Elliott Krieter was to set up the drive on the Treasurer account. In his absence we will need to table discussion. The Secretary account Google Drive was set up in 2020 and contains the archives of years of Secretary documents, including meeting minutes back to 1999.

November Auction: Discussion on the November auction included the September and October meetings status. It was also reported that an email from the ANA was sent stating some Dealers at the 2021 ANA convention reported testing positive for COVID-19. The Dealer names were not disclosed. Based on this information and the COVID Delta variant. it was decided to keep the September and October meetings online only, and to decide on the November Auction by the October Club meeting.

New Business:

Past Member Interview Publication: Lyle Daly opened discussion about publishing two interviews of past long time CCC members on the CCC website and or Newman Numismatic Portal (NNP) in follow up to an email he sent. Paul Hybert expressed concern about the file size of these video files and recommended using a YouTube channel for these large files. Lyle to reach out to NNP for publication there. Lyle also recommended we start doing interviews again, and it was decided to add a “Call for volunteers” to the September Club meeting agenda.

Club Membership Application: Scott McGowan brought up two items for board discussion:

  1. The membership application – a concern was expressed at the ANA by a new member applicant about having birthdate on the application. The club discussion was that this was needed for proper ID of individuals for future bios and publications. Does the form need any additions or deletions? The general discussion was it was a bit crowded and we could remove one of the phone number lines.
  2. An additional comment at the 2021 ANA convention was recommending a different membership level based on location. This discussion was deferred.

Membership Status: This discussion was to include review of members who have resigned from the club or recommendations of dropping members with dues in arrears. It was not known when past due members were last contacted to bring their membership current, as that would need to be reported by Treasurer Elliott Krieter. Carl Wolf has the lists from Elliott of past-due members, which he used at the Club table during the 2021 ANA for renewal of members who stopped by. Carl will forward to Lyle and Scott to review with Elliott for final notices.

Club Shirt: Mark Wieclaw asked the board for approval to move forward with CCC polo shirts as he exhibited at the 2021 ANA convention. The Shirts do not say anything about coins and only have the CCC mark and the Latin and English translation of the club motto. The thought is these can be worn in public after attending Numismatic events without risk of being identified and targeted as a Coin Collector/Dealer. Shirt costs are $24 for Poly/Cotton and $30 for 100% Cotton, with orders of 24+ shirts. The Board approved moving forward with Mark Wieclaw handling all aspects of the shirt sales.

Other New Business: Board discussion was held in response to a few past comments about potential changes to the CCC physical meeting location, based upon security concerns. Board members indicated that this topic has been discussed before. It was also commented that the Chicago Coin Club should hold meetings in the city of Chicago.

December Banquet: Based on spacing concern, the December banquet location was changed to Maggiano’s Oak Brook, Illinois. Estimated price is $65.00 with cash bar and there will be three entrée options. Further details to follow.

Next Board Meeting is November 17, 2021, 6:00pm CST.

The meeting was adjourned at 7:42pm

Respectfully Submitted,
Scott A. McGowan, Secretary

Our 1232nd Meeting

Date: September 8, 2021
Time: 6:45 PM CDT (UTC-05:00)
Location: Online Only!
Visit our Online Meeting webpage, at, for all the details on participating in an online club meeting. Participation in an online meeting requires some advance work by both our meeting coordinator and attendees, especially first-time participants. Please plan ahead; read the latest instructions on the day before the meeting!
Featured Program: Donald H. Kagin, Ph.D.Storming the Capitol – The Birth of Our Nation’s First Official Currency
A catchy title with no current political ramifications which might upset anyone’s politics. In fact, this storming of the Capitol happened more than two centuries ago! And, he has an historic and numismatic angle/story to tell.

Important Dates

Unless stated otherwise, our regular monthly CCC Meeting is online during the Covid-19 isolation era on the second Wednesday of the month; the starting time is 6:45PM CT.

September 8 CCC Meeting - Featured Speaker - Donald H. Kagin, Ph.D. on Storming the Capitol – The Birth of Our Nation’s First Official Currency
September 9-11 ILNA 61st Annual Coin & Currency Show at the Dupage County Fair Grounds, 2015 Manchester Road, Wheaton, IL. Details, including hours and events, are available at
October 13 CCC Meeting - Featured Speaker - Rich Lipman on And Now For Something Completely Different!
November 10 CCC Meeting - Club Auction - no speaker

Chatter Matter

Contacting Your Editor / Chatter Delivery Option

The print version of the Chatter is simply a printout of the Chatter webpage, with a little cutting and pasting to fill out each print page. The webpage is available before the Chatter is mailed.
If you would like to receive an email link to the latest issue instead of a mailed print copy, send an email to You can resume receiving a mailed print copy at any time, just by sending another email.

Club Officers

Elected positions:
Lyle Daly- President
John Riley- First V.P.
Melissa Gumm- Second V.P.
William Burd- Archivist
Directors:Deven Kane
Mark Wieclaw
Carl Wolf
Steve Zitowsky
Appointed positions:
Richard Lipman- Immediate Past President
Scott McGowan- Secretary
Elliott Krieter- Treasurer
Paul Hybert- Chatter Editor, webmaster
Jeffrey Rosinia- ANA Club Representative


All correspondence pertaining to Club matters should be addressed to the Secretary and mailed to:
P.O. Box 2301

Payments to the Club, including membership dues, can be addressed to the Treasurer and mailed to the above address.


Renewing Members Annual dues are $20 a year ($10 for Junior, under 18). Annual Membership expires December 31 of the year through which paid. Cash, check, or money order are acceptable (USD only please). We do not accept PayPal. Email your questions to Members can pay the Club electronically with Zelle™ using their Android or Apple smart phone. JP Morgan Chase customers can send payments to the Club via Quick Pay. To see if your Bank or Credit Union is part of the Zelle™ Payments Network, go to Please read all rules and requirements carefully.

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