Chatter

Editor's Notes

With summer events on the horizon, make a promise to yourself — to take good notes and submit a trip report to the Chatter. Summer seminar? ANA in Los Angeles? Make us wish we had been there!

Paul Hybert

Minutes of the 1086th Meeting

Session I of the 1086th meeting of the Chicago Coin Club was held June 10, 2009 in the Chicago Bar Association Building, 321 S. Plymouth Court, Downtown Chicago. President Jeffrey Rosinia called the meeting to order at 7 PM with 24 members and 1 guest, Robert Greenstein, in attendance.

The May Minutes printed in the Chatter were approved as published. Treasurer Steve Zitowsky reported May receipts $1,065.00, expenses $226.00 and total income $839.00, leaving total assets of $15,481.35 which is in Life Memberships $2,390.00 and Members’ Equity $13,091.35.

The Secretary reported he neglected to include the first reading of Patrick Mullen’s application for membership in the May Minutes. Following a second reading, a motion unanimously passed to accept Mr. Mullen into the membership. Robert Greenstein’s application for membership received first reading.

First V.P. Lyle Daly moderated and introduced a panel of coin dealers who answered member’s questions and spoke of everyday experiences in their profession. The panel included Robert Feiler, Mark Wieclaw, Robert Greenstein and William Burd.

Second V.P. Elliot Krieter introduced the evening’s 16 exhibitors. EUGENE FREEMAN: 5 coins dated 1797 from the Papal States. DONALD H. DOOL: 5 San Martin medals & an unknown 1621 flitter coin. ERIC SCHMIDT: 178(?) penny Colonial Dutch East Indies, 1499 coin from Holland, 1570 Hungarian coin, 1626 Austrian 3-kruzer & an ancient coin. ROBERT FEILER: authenticated strip of steel from 1943 U.S. cent production. LYLE DALY: 6 ancient coins from Rome and Roman occupied Greece. MARK WIECLAW: 3 ancient Roman coins with galley reverses & a laser pointer with a $ sign image. ROBERT LEONARD: 5 16th century coins related to French succession. ROBERT GREENSTEIN: 2009 U.S. proof set & a counterfeit 1896-micro “o” U.S. silver dollar. RICHARD LIPMAN: an unknown coin, medal dedicated to 5 time Chicago mayor Carter Harrison, U.S. $2.00 banknotes with handwritten messages & bag of 1 euro chocolate coins. CARL WOLF: 2 examples of bead money separately framed. STEVE HUBER: 4 world crowns. WINSTON ZACK: 9 European coins struck in 1666. BILL BURD: Q. David Bowers’ American Coin Treasures & Hoards with autographs from dealers who uncovered the hoards. NICK WEISS: junk mail offer selling the U.S. State Quarter series. MARC STACKLER: 4 Mexican Banknotes & fantasy token. MARC RICARD: George Evans’ 1893 edition of History of the U.S. Mint & Coinage.

Under New Business, a motion was passed to cast the Club’s ANA election ballot for those candidates who are club members: Clifford Mishler, President; Wendell Wolka and Joseph Boling, Governors. It was announced the Club will meet in conjunction with the MidAmerican Coin Expo at 1 PM, Saturday, June 27th. Ron Sirna, Flint, Michigan will speak on Toning on Coinage.

At 9:50 PM a recess was called with re-adjournment at 1 PM Saturday, June 27th at the MidAmerica Coin Expo, Renaissance Schaumburg Convention Center, 1551 N. Thoreau Drive, Schaumburg, IL.

. . . . . . .

Session II of the 1086th meeting of the Chicago Coin Club was held June 27, 2009 at the MidAmerica Coin Expo, Renaissance Schaumburg Convention Center, 1551 N. Thoreau Drive, Schaumburg, IL. The meeting was called to order at 1 PM, by First V.P. Lyle Daly with 23 members and 11 guests present.

Following a motion to hold an abbreviated order of business, V.P. Daly introduced the featured speaker, A. Ron Davis from Flint, Michigan who delivered a well-received program on Toned Coinage. Following numerous questions, it was announced that photographs used by Sirna would be projected on a makeshift screen at the Club’s information table on the bourse floor. Attendees were invited to stop by for further discussions.

Membership applications of Robert Wheelhouse and Tom Wettstaedt, of suburban Chicago, received first reading.

The meeting was adjourned at 2:24 PM.

Respectfully Submitted,
Carl Wolf, Secretary

Board of Governors Meeting
June 24, 2009

The Chicago Coin Club Board of Governors held a meeting June 24, 2009 at Connie’s Pizza, 2373 S. Archer, Chicago. President Rosinia called the meeting to order at 6:00 PM with the following in attendance: William Burd, Elliot Krieter, Marc Stackler and Carl Wolf.

Proposed new speaker/award medals based on the 90th Anniversary Lincoln Medal were reviewed. Directors favored the 2” X 1-3/8” bronze rectangle with the Club name placed vertically behind Lincoln. Cost would be $580 for tooling and 110 bronze medals @ $6.50 each. Five each bronze medals would be plated with gold and silver (+$3.50 each) for the top Cabeen Exhibit Award recipients. The mint would be IMC, the same place that produced the Lincoln medal. Cost to reproduce 100 medals from the current supplier would be $7.00 each.

An increase in the number of exhibitors over past months has caused the meeting to run long. Directors discussed ways to add structure to this part of the meeting and decided to begin keeping and recording individual exhibit times that will be reviewed at the next Board Meeting. Starting the meeting at 6:30 PM was also discussed.

Since the Club will host the 2011 American Numismatic Association (ANA), the Board agreed that the Club should try to come up with an exhibit from the archives. A general discussion also took place on the upcoming event. After reporting that the 90th Anniversary Medals were nearly sold out, a request was made for an inventory of all educational souvenir cards and medals.

A discussion took place concerning the possibility of the Club using the Chicago Bar Association’s cable connections to hold video-conferences with out-of-town speakers. The directors also discussed the history of the November auction.

The meeting was adjourned at 7:30 PM with the next meeting tentatively scheduled for Wednesday, August 19th at the same location.

Respectfully Submitted,
Carl Wolf, Secretary

Speaker’s Wor[l]d
Numismatics as a Profession

a panel discussion
at our June 10, 2009 meeting

The program began with the moderator, Lyle Daly, asking the four panel members to summarize their numismatic business background. Bob Greenstein has been at a downtown coin shop for 19 years, Bill Burd has owned a coin shop for 14 years, Mark Wieclaw has worked at two coin shops for some time, a Bob Feiler has been a vest-pocket dealer for a number of years. The request for the most interesting or unique acquisition got the program rolling.

One story had the seller of a typical large junk silver lot following that transaction by showing a gold Egyptian octodrachm and asking, “How much?” It had been bought years before so both sides knew what it was, although it was the first handled by this dealer — a quick phone call to an ancient coin dealer resulted in an accepted offer. Another comment was that the first 1909-S VDB cent is exciting, but after 10 of them you look for other things, such as a 10 ounce medal from the Netherlands. Sometimes, the pleasure comes from a pedigree traced to a coin collecting mentor.

A few recurring themes were: it is hard for a customer to trust a new dealer, it is hard for a dealer to trust a new customer, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The owner of a few coins who initially claims not to know what he has might reply to a dealer’s offer with the graysheet price from the next higher grade — sure to elicit a “Then sell it to the graysheet!” from the dealer. A more modern version of that line is to sell it to the Internet.

There were some comments on how to negotiate prices; the line between ridiculous and reasonable can be easily crossed. Sometimes it depends upon the material in question — with items that have a narrow spread between buy and sell prices (such as bullion), a counteroffer below the dealer’s buying price is not appreciated.

The biggest mistake that collectors make is ignoring their mortality. At a minimum, leave some notes as to which pieces are the most valuable, and list one or two trusted dealers for the different types of material. A complete listing of your buying price, dealer name, and transaction date for every piece would be ideal, and is wishful thinking. Markets change over time, so there is no need to tell them how much that battered old penny cost.

Any discussion of the coin business now is sure to get around to eBay. This program was no exception, and members added their experiences to those from the panel. The 20% taken by an eBay store and paypal adds up, but then it could be less than the overhead required with a brick and mortar location. Bullion, or other items with a small markup are no longer suited to eBay, except, perhaps, as part of a program to acquire new customers. The geographic scope is greatly increased with the Internet, and the searching capabilities are a change for the better.

Some other points were covered in this long program, too much for this report. As to getting started in the business, it all starts with your knowledge, especially your specialized knowledge. You have to enjoy some part of it, or you will give up at the first seller of junque from those cable television shopping channels.

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Show and Tell

Items shown at our June 10, 2009 meeting.

1. Eugene Freeman showed coins from some of the Papal States (in Italy). Napoleon was capturing them during 1796-1797.
   • A 1797 2½ baiocchi from Civitavecchia.
   • A 1797 5 baiocchi from Civitavecchia, with the same general design as the previous piece.
   • A 1797 5 baiocchi from Perugia. This is struck on a flan better sized for a 2½ baiocchi piece.
   • A 1796 2½ baiocchi from Guggio.
   • A 1797 5 baiocchi from San Severino.
2. The San Martin medal collection of Don Dool has been growing by leaps and bounds, and he started with some recent acquisitions:
   • Chile and Argentina almost went to war in 1902. A meeting at Buenos Aires averted war, and Don showed three Campo de Mayo medals bearing the same basic obverse design and in copper, silver plated copper, and gold plated copper.
   • Two sailors appear on an irregular shaped medal bearing the date 25 Mayo 1903. Ship’s names, O’Higgins and San Martin, appear on the sailors’ caps.
   • One of a series of 12 Argentine medals from 1910. Capital is on this one, while other city names are on others.
   • An unidentified 1 flitter dated 1621. One side is worn off of this piece that weighs twice a typical flitter. It looks like an overstrike, and Don has not identified the coat of arms.
3. Eric Schmidt showed coins issued before 1800:
   • Acquired on eBay, a penny from the Dutch East Indies with only the first three digits, 178, of the date present. The large letters VOC identify this piece that circulated in what is now Indonesia.
   • A 1616 3 kreuzer of Ferdinand II of Austria.
   • A 1499 piece from Holland.
   • A 1570 coin from Hungary, of Maimilian II.
   • Eric asked for help identifying an ancient coin, but received none about this piece with incuse shapes on the slightly concave side.
4. Bob Feiler showed a sheet of steel from which planchets for US 1943 steel cents had been punched. It also came with a browned sheet of paper, a letter of explanation, written by an ANA member.
5. Lyle Daly showed some ancient coins, mostly from Greece and struck while under Roman rule, and most were purchased at a flea market.
   • Three examples of 5 assaria pieces: an unidentified coin of Odessos in Thrace, with an obverse cud; Gordian III facing Serapis from Odessos; from Mesembria, Phillip II facing Serapis on the obverse and Athena with a shield and spear on the reverse.
   • Two silver wash denarii of Severus Alexander with a Concordia reverse. One has the reverse aligned in medal turn, while the other has a coin turn.
   • A nice Macedonian tetradrachm, with Artemis within a Macedonian shield; this was not from a flea market. Described by someone as, “A nice coin if it is not fake.”
6. Mark Wieclaw showed ancient coins with a galley on the reverse. Usually, a galley indicated a naval victory.
   • An Alexandrian tetradrachm (in billon) of Nero.
   • A bronze coin of the wife of Gordian III.
   • A bronze coin of Pilectus.
   • And for fun, a laser pointer with an assortment of tips to change the displayed “shape.” A dollar sign and then a money bag with a dollar sign were among those shown.
7. Robert Leonard used a series of French coins to show that there had been two different French kings known as Charles X.
   • From the city of Avignon, a well-worn silver coin of Pope Pius V (1566-1572), issued by Charles of Bourbon after the popes had moved back to Rome.
   • A double tournois of Henri III (1574-1578), a Catholic who was assassinated.
   • His nearest relative, Henri of Navarre, was a Protestant who assumed the title of Henri IV as shown on a double tournois from 1609. The Catholic nobles who resisted him finally gave up after Henri IV converted to Catholicism.
   • Before that conversion, Henri’s uncle, Charles of Bourbon, was proclaimed Charles X as shown on a douzain from 1593. He had died in 1590, and similar coins are known until 1598; he was chosen because the nobles could not unite behind one Catholic contender for the throne, so they named a dead man.
   • Finally, a Charles X ruled from 1820-1830, as shown by an 1829 5 centimes for French colonies.
8. Bob Greenstein showed two items:
   • A 2009 US proof set.
   • An 1896-O micro-o Morgan dollar. At one time, PCGS had graded 26 of them. A ridge in the field to the left of the eagle results from a die scratch; the same mark appears on the reverses of two other dollars from the New Orleans mint, in 1900 and 1902. Once that was realized, these three micro-o coins were reclassified as contemporary counterfeits; at that time the metal in a silver dollar cost much less than one dollar, so a counterfeit coin with good feel could return a good profit to the counterfeiter. The 1899-O micro-o is a genuine product of the New Orleans mint.
9. Richard Lipman showed a range of items:
   • A piece he is trying to identify. Latin legends on both sides, with a lamb on one side and a bishop on the other.
   • A medal of Chicago Mayor Carter H. Harrison, certifying that the bearer has pain one dollar to the Harrison memorial. He had been assassinated while mayor, and some members knew the general location of the statue (somewhere west of downtown).
   • People write the oddest things on money. Out of a couple hundred $2 bills, Richard found six examples. From legible thoughts to just scrawls.
   • Acquired during his recent trip to Europe, a bag of “pattern” clad euro coins that he gave to the attendees — the chocolate amalgam center was very tasty.
10. Carl Wolf showed two examples of primitive money, framed and with histoy:
    • Tibetan torquoise beads. Wearing torquoise helps ward off the evil eye.
    • Donkey Bead Money. Bright blue beads, accepted for small change in parts of Iran. Not worn by people, but put on their donkeys for protection.
11. Steve Huber showed four world crowns:
    • A silver 1943 tael from French Indo China; the reverse has Cambodian script on top and Chinese on the next two rows.
    • A silver 1903 Straits Settlements trade dollar, with the “incuse B” reverse type.
    • An undated Austrian taler from 1574-1595.
    • A large and beautiful 1648 piece from Saxony.
12. Coins from 1666 is the latest interest of Winston Zack, and he showed us some recent acquisitions:
    • A Great Britain crown of Charles II; this is only the fifth year of their machine struct coinage.
    • Poland and Lithuania were together then, when John II issued this silver 6 groschen coin.
    • A copper schilling from Lithuania.
    • Although about 80 German states produced coins dated that year, Winston has only two: a 3 kreuzer from Silesia, and a 2 mariengroschen from Ravensberg.
    • An attractive silver 3 kreuzer from Austria.
    • Also from Austria, a klippe — a one-ninth taler from Salzburg bearing an image of Saint Rupert of Salzburg.
    • A silver 16 skilling from Denmark, Gluckstadt.
    • An undated 1 liard from Liege while part of the Spanish Netherlands (1650-1688).
13. Bill Burd showed Dave Bowers’ American Coin Treasures and Hoards where he is collecting autographs of dealers and collectors involved in the stories. Ed Milas, David Hall, Ira Goldberg, and Eric Newman are some of the acquired.
14. Nick Weiss showed a fancy mailing offering state quarters at $15.95 plus $2 shipping per group — was that one or two coins per group? The pictures were of proof coins, but the ad had no mention of that for the available pieces. Nick did have something nice to say about the big, glossy, full color sheet — the reverses of all pieces appear clearly and it provides a handy reference.
15. Marc Stackler showed some older Mexican items:
    • The Mexican Numismatic Society reports a rash of counterfeit high denomination notes from state banks. Most of the originals had been printed by the Anerican Banknote Company, and Mark showed four original 50 peso notes. There were two National Banks in Mexico in the early 1900s, with the remaining banks just state banks.; that banking system collapsed in 1915.
    • Fantasy tokens are appearing on eBay. Probably from 1950s Guadalajara, these nice appearing pieces look nothing like the originals from the early 1800s.
16. Marc Ricard told how the Government Building at the 1893 Columbian Exposition contained a wonderful exhibit of coins and paper notes. Then he showed a special edition, for the Columbian Exposition, of George Evans’ History of the US Mint and Coinage. The front cover has a gold embossed portrait medal honoring ChristopherColumbus. Photos of mints and assayer offices are included. Among the included ads is one for Evans’ guide to the mint.

Our 1087th Meeting

Important Dates

Birthday and Year Joined

Chatter Matter

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CHICAGO COIN CLUB
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